“There Will Be No More Revolution”

MOSCOW, Russia -- At the end of last week, Yuri Lutsenko, head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, former organizer of “Orange Revolution” demonstrations, had negotiations in Moscow with his Russian colleague, Rashid Nurgaliev. Before departure back to Ukraine, Lutsenko told Kommersant correspondent Vladimir Soloviev about why there would be no more revolutions in Ukraine.


Yuri Lutsenko
After Rada disapproval’s of Yuri Ekhanurov for the prime minister position, the State Secretary Oleg Rybalchuk said that he has a backup plan –Yuri Lutsenko. Why?

Well, first of all, Oleg is a good friend of mine. Second, that was a special operation of some sort. If the candidature of Lutsenko for the position of prime minister would be offered for real, it would create a mixed reaction in Rada. The opposition factions would for sure block the tribune and would start to scream: “E-kh-a-nu-rov!” Let’s say it was a normal political joke.

What do you think about Ekhanurov?

I’ve known him for a long time and I respect him. And I wouldn’t hide the secret if I’d tell you that right after Yushenko’s victory in the corridors of Supreme Rada, I was loudly supporting Ekhanurov’s candidacy for the prime minister position. Already in that time he could become a stabilizing factor for the situation in Ukraine. He would be well received by business people in Ukraine and Russia. He would be well understood by those who were demonstrating in Kiev and Donetsk. I think he was wanted already then. However, the revolutionary situation went in a different direction and Ekhanurov was called in only six months after.

Do you think another “Orange Revolution” could happen under the leadership of Yulia Timoshenko?

Let’s speak sincerely. The people on the squares were not standing because of Timoshenko or even Yushenko. The people wanted freedom. They were expressing an anger against falsifications and against the president that they did not choose. Thus, it would be impossible to bring these people back into the streets when democracy and freedom already took hold in Ukraine. Of course it is possible to repeat some actions of the protest against certain politicians. It is not difficult. I can assure you in that as a field commander of the “Orange Revolution” (this name Lutsenko had during the mass protests –Kommersant). However, it is impossible to repeat the “Orange Revolution,” when socialists, nationalists, democrats, anarchists, non-partisans, Eastern and Western Ukrainians, Christian Orthodoxy, Catholics, and atheist – all gathered in the same city squares. They all wanted freedom. However, what is going on now is nothing more than internal party fight – the clash of ambitions. Right now the “Orange Revolution” is not possible.

Were you, as a field commander, disgusted by the union of Viktor Yushenko and Viktor Yanukovich?

God forbid… I don’t split Ukraine for enemies and friends. I was protesting not against citizen Yanukovich. I was organizing people’s demonstrations against the falsifications. For that reason, Yanukovich, who backed by 15 – 20 percent of Ukrainian voters, maybe is not my favorite, but is still a very real politician. I took absolutely normally the dialog of the current president and the politicians from the opposition. Of course, I have a negative attitude to him, but it is my civil right.

So, you think it is not part of some big game of Viktor Yushenko against Yulia Timoshenko?

Everything develops in its natural way. The cleaning stage of the revolution is over and now it is time to make a dialog within different electoral groups. In this sense, the high voiced dialog of Yushenko and Timoshenko or clenching teeth dialog of Yushenko and Yanukovich – are normal things. I think this is the right of the citizens with different beliefs to talk to each other and to remain the citizens of one country.

What do you think about the political reform?

I have pretty good opinion about it. I was parliament member from the Socialist party and this party was the initiator of the reform. I voted for these bills. And besides, I consider “orange revolution" to be a real revolution because it changed not only the president but also the powers themselves. If it would not be for the Constitutional changes, it would be just change of faces. But when Rada took the decision about the reform it was a revolution.

However, recently Viktor Yushenko suggested postponing the reform. It looks like he doesn’t really need that.

Everything is in the past now. Today, the president believes the necessity of political reform that would start from Jan. 1 of next year.

It looks like the election campaign already has started. Are Socialists and “Our Ukraine” staying friends?

I wouldn’t call that a friendship even in today’s relations. The Socialists and “Our Ukraine” have different views for many issues. They are united by common understanding of “being Ukrainian.” Yes, the election campaign has started, but I think Socialist Party, “Our Ukraine” and bloc of Vladimir Litvin (Speaker of Rada –Kommersant) will run their own campaigns. However, I think that they wouldn’t fight with each other. We have different views, but we have common strategic vision of Ukraine’s future.

When you became an interior minister, you promised within two months to purge the police from thieves and to get rid off corruption. Did you fire a lot of people already?

I did not promise to do so within two months. I said that I would start a serious campaign. For seven months of this year about 5,000 people had voluntarily resigned, about 2,000 could not pass the personal certification and about 400 were charged with crimes. To let you compare, I’d tell you that in National Security Service there were no charges brought up against anybody and the tax service has only 16 people under investigation. So, the purge was pretty radical, and that allowed me to surround myself with colleagues and allies from the right, from the left, and the main thing – from the back. In June we announce the movement to decriminalize the society. And that become possible only after internal purges within our ministry.

Does the fact that you had no connection in the past with police prevent your job? You suffered from the police, but you never work for them…

I've never suffered from the police. The communications with law enforcements were always normal. During the mass demonstrations of protests we met with our acquaintances from the police before every public action and talked about the rules of game: what we can and what we cannot do. That’s because I was responsible for hundreds of thousand my people and they were responsible for thousands of theirs. I always respected those, who kept the word and had the officer’s honor. All these facts allowed me –a civil person- without any problem to become the head of the Interior Ministry. And the fact that I was not connected with police previously is rather a plus than a minus. The outside look is always more interesting that the inside one. But, then again, I wouldn’t be the judge on that one.

What is going on now with Gongadze case?

The Prosecution Office has the case. Our job is the operative work. But, I would be lying, if I would say that is all we care about. Georgy Gongadze was not just a man, who woke up Ukraine. He was working for the newspaper where I was the editor. He gave his life for the consolidation of anti-Kuchma opposition. Coming to the Interior Ministry on the wave of “orange revolution”, I knew that I had to contribute to this case. The investigation advanced quite far already. It was me, who announce the amnesty for the low level case participants if they would just name the main figures. That turned out to be an effective tactic. The former and still active police officers, who participated in this crime, were giving the information to me in my office. Because of their accounts, the investigation group arrested three murder suspects. This is a giant step. The next question we have: who did order the murder? The society demands the truth and the truth they shall receive. Today, we know who did the killing. Tomorrow we’ll tell who ordered it. The people should not wait for years to learn the results of investigation.

Why did you come to Moscow?

First of all, it is not my first time in here. I was just riding the car with the first deputy of your Interior Ministry and was remembering my first time in here. I don’t know what caused me to think about it. Maybe it was shot of vodka, which I drank for the approval of our new prime minister, or, maybe, it was just a special mood. My father and I came here in 1980. In 5 a.m. we took our place in line to the Lenin’s mausoleum. It was minus 23 degrees of Celsius - pretty cold… Then, in the top floor of the Hotel Moscow I drank vodka for a first time. My father insisted so I’d warm up. So, for that reason Moscow is not a foreign capital for me. Our histories are too close – all our great victories and great defeats. I came here for negotiations with my colleague Rashid Nurgaliev. We have a lot of common problems and common ways to improve our relations. Only cooperation will help us. However, that was not the only reason for my visit. I came here with joy because it is Moscow and because I am from Kiev.

But, I think Ukrainian authorities have a lot of questions to the people who also found their comfort here as well…

This is temporary. Their freedom here is temporary, and they know it too. Our meeting with the minister will touch this problem also. Everything will be resolved- maybe not as fast as we want it, but it will be resolved. I am sure that Mr. Bakay, (former Head of the Presidential Administrative Office, which hides in Russia from Ukrainian authorities – Kommersant) who suddenly becomes a Russian citizen, will respond here in the same manner as he will be responding in Kiev. And other our citizens, who live in your capital understand that it’s all temporary. It doesn’t matter when they will answer for their crimes. What really matters is the idea that it’s unavoidable. Our mutual actions could be improved. And I feel mutuality there.

Did you bring to Moscow something new?

One thing for sure – I did not bring an orange tie to Moscow.

Source: Kommersant